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ChromaTalk Archives: October 2011

Chroma - Voices 4567 fail

Dave Manley [21030547] · Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:43:31 -0700

I got the Chroma opened up to install the CPS and on power up Voices 4567 report fail. Probing around I see on the channel mother board that pin Z4.1 is stuck low, which would prevent the strobe decodes for channels 4-7. So that makes sense. The data input at Z4.5 is toggling, and WRSYNA is active, so it looks like Z4 is dead. The pulse generator in the other half of Z4 is also stuck. I'll check for cold solder joints, etc.

Now the weird thing - looking at the Z5 address latch, all the inputs are toggling, and WRSYNA is active on patch changes and autotune, but it looks like Z5.2 is stuck high and Z5.7 is stuck low. Z5.10 and Z5.15 toggle.

With Z4.1 stuck low, if Z5.2 is really stuck high, it looks like only channels 2 and 3 should autotune, but 0-3 tune ok.

Also, with Z5.7 stuck low, only channel STB0 and STB1 can get decoded. Is STB2 unnecessary for autotune?

Perhaps, Z5 is ok, and I've got some triggering problem. I'll see if the STB2 data latch output is changing on patch edits.

Dave Manley [21030547] · Sun, 2 Oct 2011 17:42:55 -0700

Turns out WRSYNA and WRSYND are barely changing - I unplugged the cable from the IO board to the channel motherboard and they're still not dropping by more than about a volt. The other outputs on Z41 (LS138), for example the tapper enable, show good levels - dropping to near ground.

Looks like this is the culprit.

Any tips on removing the IO board? The front panel membrane ribbons look really fragile. There are three green molex connectors, J14-16. Do they pop open to let the ribbon slip out?

Paul DeRocco [21030230] · Mon, 3 Oct 2011 09:42:14 -0700

Any tips on removing the IO board? The front panel membrane ribbons look really fragile. There are three green molex connectors, J14-16. Do they pop open to let the ribbon slip out?

Yes, that's how those connectors work.

However, you may be able to do a top repair. Snip the leads on Z41 close to the body, then unsolder each pin from the board individually. When they're all removed, you can soak up the remaining solder with solder wick or a solder sucker. Sometimes adding a little solder helps, because it provides some fresh flux. When all the holes are clean, you can poke a new chip in, and top solder it. For this to work, however, it's important that the job be done cleanly, because with too much heat it's possible to pull the plating out of a hole, in which case top soldering won't guarantee contact with the bottom pad. When this happens, you can actually see a little cylinder of copper around the pin you pulled out.

Factory Patch Descriptions Update

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Mon, 3 Oct 2011 18:11:54 -0700

I've posted expanded descriptions and performance notes from Fender for Factory Patch Set 4 (Drums and Sound Effects) and Set 5. Both the original, which had been on the site since June 1999, and expanded versions are dated 1983. Thanks to Brian McCully [21030361] for this information.

Chroma on Markplaats.nl

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:47:52 -0700

Listing #487720680, €4.000,00. From translating the page, I gather that it's in near-new condition. Has the SPSU and CC+ upgrades. If anyone can provide a good translation and contact the seller for the serial number (and, if successful, obtain permission to use the images), I'd appreciate it.

Chris Smalt [21010280+] · Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:31:59 +0200

- Rhodes Chroma -

This is the classic. Recently checked out, equiped with a modern power supply (SPSU upgrade) *and* the new processor board (CC+ upgrade). In other words, it's fully stable and midi-controllable (parameters also!), with many new functions and more memory.

The Chroma has a real wooden piano keyboard. A serious synth with a history (this model brought on the demise of ARP, but was fortunately rescued and marketed under the name of Rhodes :)

I saw that a nice iPad editor is available for Chromas with the CC+ upgrade (like this one)

More fotos available. Email if seriously interested.

See my other ads or request my list of upcoming offers!

I emailed the seller for the serial number. Oddly under brand ("Merk") it says Roland. :-)

CPS re-glueing re-visited, again

See earlier thread Re: re-glueing the CPS etc., September 2011.

Brian McCully [21030361] · Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:09:01 -0700

Venting allows the flexible Mylar with the FSR patch, which stands off the opposing circuits via some type of spacer, to be pressed down onto the circuit, increasing the FSR to Circuit contact area, lowering the resistance causing an increase in current flow through the circuit the harder you press. Without venting, you would have a bubble preventing contact. Interlink has a document that should explain it.

My CPS un-did itself again between the PCB and wood spacer. This is with the updated glue situation as described in the archives (from September 1, using Liquid nails (instead of the original 3M 77 spray adhesive)). I will be re-glueing the assembly 'in the field' next week. I haven't removed the assembly yet, but about 2/3 of it is hanging off and I lightly poked a bit of my finger on the bared PCB - it's tacky... This has happened twice with two separate assemblies, that the PCB has separated from the wood spacer. Two different glues.

I've carefully reviewed the archives. I have a few questions for the "CPS installed" folks at large. I've also corresponded with Chris Borman [21030194+].

Both Dave [21030547] and Jesper [21010135] have reported the other PCB to wood spacer failures, so far. Anyone else? How are the repairs holding together? Anyone else have experience with gluing PCB's to wood? I noticed that in the site's 'CPS installation pictures' the wood spacer appears to be raw (uncolored) but the wood spacer on mine is black, from the side at least (I haven't removed it to re-examine it yet). Any thoughts on how the wood surface affects the adhesion? I was going to make sure that I sanded and pre-glued (the wood), so that the glue would best bond to itself. Another issue is removing the pre-existing glue on the PCB - at least in the few areas where I'll apply it. How best to? Solvent type? I will be also securing the MUX board this time around, as per Chris's suggestion in one of the archives (or in the instructions...).

thanks much, -Brian

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:37:06 +0200

Hi Brian,

personally speaking, I didn't trust the glued solution that much, and it seems that field feedback is confirming my suspicions. My Chroma and a couple of instruments I've fitted the kit are okay, but the experience has some issues.

Some time ago, Chris Borman sent a graphic file on the list, showing existing holes on the aftertouch PCB; those holes are covered by the felt, but I guess they should be useful to fix the PCB with small screws to the wood.

I can't locate that mail: Chris B., should you read this mail, would you please post the design again.

At worst case, with the control PCB mounted on the wood and a couple of small brackets (with screws) at the far ends of the PCB, it should stay in place.

Thanks
Luca

Dave Manley [21030547] · Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:46:02 -0700

Hi Luca,

The holes can be seen here.

Note they are quite small and would require great care to use. A couple of small 'L' brackets might be a better solution.

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:09:23 +0200

Thanks, Dave!

I agree with you about the 'L' brackets; the next one I should install I'll try that way.

Ciao
Luca

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 13:13:50 -0400

I recommend the bracket solution to support the ends of the sensor and vertically supporting screws at the mux bd into the damper bar to support the center. The mux should not be drawn-in beyond its natural lay on the sensor.

I'll look at this solution option tonight when I get home.

Jesper Ödemark [21010135] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:32:28 +0200

Brian McCully skrev 2011-10-05 18:09:

Both Dave and Jesper have reported the other PCB to wood spacer failures, so far. Anyone else? How are the repairs holding together?

My glue-gunned solution works great here, in the damp south of Scandinavia. I considered using the holes but deemed them too narrow and wasn't willing to risk messing up the PCB or key action.

The board is not coloured on the glue side so that's not the culprit. L-brackets are probably good, but I felt the entire assembly wasn't secured enough when just fixed at the ends and middle. I experienced a slight "droopy" feel and some keys still moved the entire spider/PCB. It's not my favourite hobby to open the Chroma (especially since I have more gear on top of it) so I decided to glue along the entire length, but as mentioned, along the sides and not on the PCB itself.

But brackets are probably good too if you feel that it works for you. :D

BTW, I didn't manage to get Cubase to receive poly pressure. I haven't checked if I've missed ticking any boxes, but if there's any obvious mistake that's easy to make - please let me know!

David Clarke [21030085++] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:27:18 -0400

Poly Pressure Via MIDI

... BTW, I didn't manage to get Cubase to receive poly pressure. I haven't checked if I've missed ticking any boxes, but if there's any obvious mistake that's easy to make - please let me know!

If you're using the CC+ for MIDI:

  • Ensure that firmware version 213 or newer is installed (checked via [SET SPLIT 36][P25])
  • If firmware 215 is being used, ensure Polyphonic pressure mode is selected [SET SPLIT 36][P16] = Pol.
  • Ensure that MIDI Pressure Tx is enabled [SET SPLIT 36][P26] = On.

If you're using the KMX/Syntech interface for MIDI:

  • Ensure Polyphonic pressure mode is selected [SET SPLIT 46][P16] = Pol.
  • Turn on Chroma Pressure Interface with [SET SPLIT][P35].

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:19:23 -0400

You could remove the two damper bar L brackets in the center, or just skip over them when applying the bead. Other than total glue failure, there is negligible downward force applied by the sensor array's minimal mass. I don't know what adhesives are available in your area, but a squeeze tube of Liquid Nails or other Construction Adhesive will be available from your local hardware store. Just apply a small bead, then one wipe with a moistened finger to smooth and lightly press into the corner.

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:42:00 -0400

...the first part of this msg is in the Chromatalk que waiting approval due to the msg size (attached pictures).

Jesper Ödemark [21010135] · Poly Pressure Via MIDI

Re: Poly Pressure Via MIDI

David Clarke skrev 2011-10-06 04:27:

If you're using the CC+ for MIDI:

  • Ensure that firmware version 213 or newer is installed (checked via [SET SPLIT 36][P25])
  • If firmware 215 is being used, ensure Polyphonic pressure mode is selected [SET SPLIT 36][P16] = Pol.
  • Ensure that MIDI Pressure Tx is enabled [SET SPLIT 36][P26] = On.

I knew I could rely on you. :)

I'll check the settings this weekend. A friend burnt a new eprom and it's fitted and everything works so I guessed it was some software on/off setting.

Go to next message in thread, Deember 2011

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:45:45 -0400

This is my CPS. Installed approx. 18 months ago. No delamination issue at all using the original 3M Spray 77 adhesive. Note there is no paint. The delaminated sensor that Brian returned was NOT painted on the surface where the PCB attaches. Brian mentioned the adhesive on his sensor was tacky, so maybe it never set for some reason. Dave, your CPS was re-attached using the same adhesive and application technique - Is it holding together?

cpsleftfronttopthumb

cpsleftfrontsidethumb

I don't recommend drilling out the holes due to the possibility of particulate matter migrating onto the adjacent sensor landings. Totally re-gluing the sensor to damper bar surface can result in the glue migrating down the PCB vias and into the EVERY sensor landing... So, there is room for a VERY small L bracket on either end, front side. I am leaning towards Jespers repair. A SMALL bead of adhesive applied all the way down the FRONT TOP/SIDE of the sensor and damper bar. This seems to be the cleanest technique for a field repair leaving the sensor in its correct orientation.

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:38:48 -0700

...the first part of this msg is in the Chromatalk que waiting approval due to the msg size (attached pictures).

As I always approve these larger messages anyway, I'm going to bump up the maximum message size significantly. When the list started, there were still a lot of people on dial-up. Any objections?

Brian McCully [21030361] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:34:14 -0700

Thanks all, for the input, I was waiting a sun cycle before responding. As I've emailed Chris B, my studio has minimal environmental swings, i.e. it's not humid at all, has no direct sunlight, and is warm enough to keep my fingers moving most all the time. (basically way within any construction-glue type specifications) So I just figure since (most) everyone else's CPS is holding together, mine eventually will.

btw from my browser it is hard to always catch any attached jpegs in my chromatalk forum daily download - they are listed but seemingly removed by some servers along the way. I did catch the two addresses that Chris attached, of the raw cross-bar (damper) with pcb attached, and followed to the links to a save-able file.

Since there is no lip on the PCB circuit board to speak of, to 'bracket' and I want to avoid using the tiny little screw hole candidates, I'll probably just try to re-glue using the "SMALL bead of adhesive applied all the way down the FRONT TOP/SIDE of the sensor and damper bar" instructions, avoiding the 'ventilation ports' if at all possible (wherever they are??). And I'll separately secure the MUX as well, with whatever length screw spacers to keep it firmly in place (i.e. vertical, not tilted).

I've been waiting to upgrade to Cubase 6 (to work with the polyphonic AT) after my polyAT issues settled down. It seems like it will be a great way to edit and manipulate the data. One of the engineering VP's at the Steinberg booth gave me a demo at NAMM last year, as I had specific questions regarding multi-channel continuous controller editing (for 6 to 12 channel guitar synth applications) and the polyAT editing features, that the booth demo guys usually don't have answers for. Looks like Steinberg did a nice job with the interface. thanks much, this a great forum, -Brian

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:17:57 -0400

The FSR array vents at both ends of the sensor assembly. No glue there! The sensor hangs a few mm beyond the front of the damper bar creating a ledge. Certainly the safest place to apply the adhesive bead right on that ledge to secure the sensor/damper bar joint.

CPU ribbon connectors stuck to I/O board

Eric W. Mattei [21030443+] · Wed, 05 Oct 2011 21:04:53 -0700

Hello all

I'm finally installing my CC+ boards. I'm having trouble disconnecting the ribbon connectors from the I/O board. The ones on the Expander came off o.k. but the ones on the Chroma seem stuck on tight. I've tried unscrewing the old CPU board from the panel so as to get a better grip on the ribbon connector's plastic shrouds without success.

The old CPU board had a battery leak so I wonder if the acid or the fumes have done a number on the plastic shroud. Maybe the CC+ doesn't use plastic shrouds on its ribbon connectors because they have a tendency to get stuck?

In any case, any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks to all in advance.

Paul DeRocco [21030230] · Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:32:30 -0700

It might be possible to fix this by taking both boards out, laying them down upside-down, and desoldering the connectors from the back. But it's not easy getting all the solder off of a bunch of pins. I generally add fresh solder, then use a solder sucker to get most of it out, and then grab the protruding contact with pliers and wiggle it back and forth until I feel it break free of the wall of the hole. If you can successfully do this to all the contacts, then you could perhaps get a razor blade between the shroud and the connector body from the underside, and pry them apart.

Unless the problem is that contacts themselves have somehow gotten stuck inside the connector (which I can't imagine), then worst case you could simply hack away the shrouds until you can get the flex strip out. The connectors will work without the shrouds, they just won't protect the strips against falling out or bending the pins. You could perhaps replace the shrouds with a couple of narrow strips of duct tape when you put everything back together.

Eric W. Mattei [21030443+] · Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:28:49 -0700

I was able to pry them apart using an X-ACTO knife and a razor blade. I was afraid of cutting the tracings so I used the razor blade to shield the surface of the board as I used the X-ACTO knife to pry the shroud off. Thanks

Working CPU wanted

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:28:00 +0200

Hi all,

I'm in the need to repair a Chroma, with has likely a CPU fault, preventing to work on the analog part. Although I'm in the way to build a Voice Board Tester, I'd like to ask if anybody has a working CPU board aside, from a CC+ upgrade, and if is available for purchase.

I've just sold my one on eBay for 50 euros... I hope the price would be reasonably low :)

P.S.: David Clarke [21030085++] told me that no CC+ are available at present and the next batch will be done in 2012

Bruce Sklar [21030660] · Sat, 8 Oct 2011 14:46:52 -0400

I need to look in my studio, but i hopefully still have mine I'll email you tomorrow- last wedding of the season to play today and i need to leave soon. I will certainly sell it reasonably.

Microchips on eBay

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:36:28 -0700

Nine new listings. I'm not quite sure what these are; perhaps someone can provide some details:

  • Item #180737193441: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip F0 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #170710897410: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip KBOSCN R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #170710894983: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip D0 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #180737194203: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip F8 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #170710894088: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip E8 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #180737195229: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip D8 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #180737195229: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip D8 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #170710895381: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip C8 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #180737194916: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip E0 R13 Electronics Part"
  • Item #170710895710: "Rhodes Chroma Microchip C0 R13 Electronics Part"

All are USD$9.95; auctions end October 18.

eBayMicrochips

Doug Terrebonne [21030114] · Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:36:56 -0700

Seems like he's trying to sell each ROM chip from a set separately...

By the way you will also find an auction for my CEM3350 chips [eBay item #140615035546], I still have a few so if anyone wants one contact me directly for a better price. :)

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:06:18 +0200

Ciao Chris,

these are all EPROMs: the x R13 are for CPU board, while KBDSCN is for Keyboard Scanner.

Chroma 21030742 for Sale

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:04:12 -0700

From Dave Akers, the owner:

From: "Dave Akers"
Subject: My Chroma
Date: 13 October, 2011 7:39:58 AM PDT

HI Chris,

I am selling my Chroma on e-bay right now. I don’t know the protocol on this, but if appropriate, it would be nice to get the word out with the Chroma fan base so they don’t miss this opportunity.

My unit has never been out on the road, and is in perfect condition. The link to the auction is [item #310351584273]. I purchased my unit new from the Keyboard Exchange in Denver in the early 80’s, and this unit is a one owner, and I am on the website that way.

See 21030742 in the registry.

One of the pictures from the auction:

eBay310351584273

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:21:20 -0700

Sold for USD$3,550.00.

more CPS BS, an update

Brian McCully [21030361] · Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:22:50 -0700

Got to work for yet the 3rd time around on the CPS installation(s) yesterday. Took more than a few hours with my local tech. The PCB had totally fallen off of the wood spacer board and so it was relatively easy to remove. Was hoping for an easy fix, like '3rd time the charm'. The difficult part was removing the wood spacer, which turned out to be a black (spray?) painted yardstick (numbers/lettering beneath still quite visible and embossed, quite porous surface, not sanded...), which was certainly the lead candidate for being the reason the adhesive wasn't holding PCB to yardstick. And the probable reason I was having to re-do all of this yet one more time...arrrgghhh.

So rather than trying to glue the PCB's back to the 'tainted' yardstick, we decided to just double side sticky tape the PCB directly to the damper cross bar. Reasoning being that it was possibly one less thing involved, because it seems the main reason the wood spacer is there is to hold the two symmetrical FSR circuit strips together in assembly form (for shipping etc). And Mr. B had suggested using double sided sticky tape at one point...because it actually works really well.

Too well, because it's a real bear to remove (peel) all of it to get back to a baby smooth surface. It took a long time to clean all the parts up.

Anyhow the next unfortunate problem was, rather than using one long strip of tape because one of the tape rolls ran out, we used two lengths of the tape end to end, and for some darn reason when the assembly was re-installed the D key two below middle C would only play a full-on pressure, all the time.

After dealing with this for a few minutes and trying to figure out a work-around (jiggling the MUX board, looking for any clue), we noticed the offending note was right where the two pieces of sticky tape met end to end. We slowly (as carefully as possible) removed one of the two PCB's (the one with the offending FSR), re-taped to the half way point (where the two boards meet), re-attached the PCB, re-assembled, re-installed, and it all started working normally. Phew. Everything was working.

Took the Chroma home. Started playing it today and another note - the A below middle C - is now acting the same i.e. with full pressure on.

So my question for Mr. B - short of stripping the board off and trying to re-attach it again, is there some reason for this 'FSR full on' occurrence and is there a relief valve type fix to either vent or shut off the one offending FSR? Is this a 'bubble' venting problem?

The MIDI output yields just one aftertouch value of 127 - i.e. full on. Whereas all the other adjacent FSR's are variable outputting AT messages, under variable pressure. And this one note does trigger when hit - i.e. it is not 'on' all of the time, and will send out multiple (127 only) values when re-triggered accordingly. It is not the very end FSR, location wise, so I'm not sure how the tape is affecting it this time around because the tape runs continually across it (and the other adjacent FSR's).

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:07:56 -0700

I just reviewed the pictures of the first separated CPS, that I'd sent to Chris (prior to the gorilla glue application) and heck, that spacer board is also painted (stained) black. Glad I took the pictures...and if I was a betting man I'd say that the culprit is absolutely the stained spacer, both times. Why is it even painted? Looks better?

So, Chris - The latest problem is probably a short, and since I suck at cutting traces and/or solder in jumpers and poking around in general, I propose sending the latest CPS back to you, attached to my damper bar. Then you can assess, repair, swap out, or whatever, to get me a working CPS (attached to my damper bar). And then ship it back when you're really darn sure that it works 100%. 1000% even.

Maybe using double sided sticky tape between PCB and wood isn't a good idea, because the hammering of the keys will eventually bust a circuit trace somehow, because the tape 'gives' behind it.

And spray adhesive between crossbar (or spacer) and pcb is actually an ok implementation, ONLY when the PCB is attached to a raw, sanded, non-porous type of a harder wood.

I could maybe have had a working CPS this whole time (saving me about 8 to 10 hours of tech time and needless emails) with no 'painted' spacer. Techs are typically $90/hr out this way and they are fully equipped for good reasons. Luckily my tech is a heck of a nice guy and has understood my situation all too well, and not charged me full pop.

All I want is a working CPS. Whadya say, Chris? Can we do this, and ... in a timely fashion?

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:48:17 -0400

Not sure I can fix what has happened to your CPS Kit. With the exception of the glue, I believe your installation(s) may not be up to par. I'll take a look but you really think a third kit is going to work for you?

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:53:23 -0700

Par? If both the 1st kit and 2nd kit hadn't fallen apart on their own I could give you a better take on how my golf game is progressing. Unfortunately I've been stuck at the first hole, within that analogy. The 2nd kit actually worked. It just fell apart before I could spend any quality time with it. The 1st one worked mostly, but...fell apart. If I didn't have to deal with these issues (in the field), then the other resulting issues may NOT have cropped up.

Yeah, this last CPS may not be fixable. So my proposal is to send you my damper bar, and you install a new kit. And test it. Make sure it works and is properly glued together, from whatever experiences "we're" learning here. That way there's no question about 'par'. Because when I receive it and install it, it will be no more than difficult than placing it the Chroma and tightening down 4 nuts. And plugging in the 8 pin connector. If it's malfunctioning at that point, "we" will be back to square one. At the source.

Dave Bradley [16330135] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:08:49 -0500

Perhaps this is better handled off-list.

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:50:25 -0400

Brian

I will install the CPS Kit for you on your Damper Bar. I will install it to your markings that center the Sensor on your Damper Bar - please refer to the online installation instructions should you need further detail. You will be required to adjust the vertical positioning of your Damper Bar and Mux Board Sensitivity during re-installation into your Chroma. Assuming your markings are correct, all should be good.

I will require your marked Damper Bar and complete CPS assembly.

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:51:14 -0400

Perhaps this is better handled off-list.

You would think...

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:07:08 -0700

I propose that troubleshooting discussion is fair game for the list, as long as frustration and accusation are kept out of it; negotiations and proposals regarding repairs, refunds, and such should be conducted directly between parties. Sound reasonable?

Peter Forrest [21010096] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:39:46 +0100

That sounds absolutely fair.

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:04:49 -0700

I will install the CPS Kit for you on your Damper Bar. I will install it to your markings that center the Sensor on your Damper Bar - please refer to the online installation instructions should you need further detail. You will be required to adjust the vertical positioning of your Damper Bar and Mux Board Sensitivity during re-installation into your Chroma. Assuming your markings are correct, all should be good.

I will require your marked Damper Bar and complete CPS assembly.

Right on, Chris. Thanks, -Brian

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:03:23 -0700

I propose that troubleshooting discussion is fair game for the list, as long as frustration and accusation are kept out of it; negotiations and proposals regarding repairs, refunds, and such should be conducted directly between parties. Sound reasonable?

I agree with the proposal. I apologize to the list for being forthright about this situation in particular, as some readers may feel uncomfortable with perceived negativity. But products are not always as peachy as advertised. This forum offers information about products, and I feel that all of it - customer service, especially - should be right up front. It's the full cost of doing business, front to back.

In a separate off-line email I've asked Chris Ryan to consider a 'reviews' section, similar to the Harmony Central format. Not just covering older industry magazine type write-ups, but more current add-ons. Software, hardware - anything Chroma related. It's one thing for a product to exist and be touted, but usability, long term performance, user insights and perceptions, etc. are also critical. It would be nice to have a catch basin reference (rather than browser search results) for this sort of information.

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:14:32 -0400

ouch...

Dave Bradley [16330135] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:30:21 -0500

Personally, I feel that the "products" offered here for enhancing the chroma can be characterized more as enthusiasts coming up with neat stuff and sharing it, than as professional manufacturers producing product for profit.

As such, a little more slack and a little less belligerence is called for. This is the ONLY poly pressure solution available in the world for this keyboard. I'm sure he came up with it because nobody else would, and I'm also sure he is not getting rich doing it.

I did a little of this type thing in the modular synth area for awhile, and the hassles of dealing with customers hardly offsets the money coming in. In my case, I managed to pay for some pieces of the product for my own use but that was about it.

Marais · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:36:09 -0400

It should of been tested, and documented much better before being sold to the list members. Also with selling comes basic manners, and politeness, with no attitude, at least in my world.

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:39:46 -0700

Reviews?

ouch...

Chris, your CPS product has a great success rate. What I said about a review section wasn't pointed at your product specifically, but oops(!) it still had the leftover Subject line. Sub-par of me, darn-it. I just happened to have made a meager donation to the site recently and Chris Ryan asked me (in response) if there were any additions or changes to the site I thought might be worthwhile.

I think a Reviews section could be a centralized means to ferret out issues, suggest improvements, merit kudos, alert people to features, applicability, etc. etc. Or even point people towards musical and audio successes...

Like: e.g. the iPad products for the Chroma are not currently bi-directional. If/when they become bi-directional I'd probably budget for an iPad. I've seen one of the two offerings discussed at length in another product's forum and it was an interesting interchange. Could be x-linked in a review.

e.g. the 'current' editor-librarians are where? still available and do they run on any current standard operating systems? do they directly or indirectly interface with any of the hardware controllers? which users are using what, and are the app's stable or glitchy?

e.g. what if the CPS did not have a perceived even playing response across the keyboard? and maybe there's no CPU leftover to build in individual tailored key curves to change the response? Then maybe someone would run with this and build an applette for the front end of a sequencer to perform this function. And suppose it works great controlling a certain plug-in and was used on some latest hit album. Then everyone would need a CPS, right?

Anyway it might be nice to have all of these 'reviews' in whatever sort of standardized format, all somehow centralized. I've used Harmony Central to make some purchasing decisions because some of the write-ups were insightful (inciteful too) and quite useful. I just don't know if you'll find a write-up on iPod apps for Chroma's on Harmony Central or alternate plug-in sites.

Often write-ups are marketing based rather than an end user's take.

But maybe the Rhodes site is just one big review, and it's fine as is. And if everything is supposed to remain relatively PC on the site then maybe it's a really bad idea, as criticism is quite double edged.

Chris Borman [21030194+] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:49:45 -0400

Personally, I feel that the "products" offered here for enhancing the chroma can be characterized more as enthusiasts coming up with neat stuff and sharing it, than as professional manufacturers producing product for profit.

As such, a little more slack and a little less belligerence is called for. This is the ONLY poly pressure solution available in the world for this keyboard. I'm sure he came up with it because nobody else would, and I'm also sure he is not getting rich doing it.

I did a little of this type thing in the modular synth area for awhile, and the hassles of dealing with customers hardly offsets the money coming in. In my case, I managed to pay for some pieces of the product for my own use but that was about it.

Exactly Dave and likewise buying comes basic manners, and politeness, with no attitude.

Brian McCully [21030361] · Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:37:06 -0700

the big 3 upgrade - looking back?

Hi Dave,

I finally decided to upgrade my Chroma (which I've had for 25+ years I guess) and purchased the big 3 - CPU, PS and CPS. I'd only been reading the Chroma group forums for a bit, but it all seemed up and up. I have a tech in my neighborhood who lives 2 blocks away and his shop is 5 blocks away. He is a pro. He manufactures stomp boxes, deals with customers all the day long and owns a very cool brick and mortar guitar shop.

I have worked at a major pro audio manufacturer for 7 years, in every aspect of the cradle to grave product cycle (support, engineering, beta, trade shows, etc.). Major releases, major upgrades, glitches along the way (software and hardware). But I still suck at soldering and basic carpentry, so I enlisted my neighborhood tech to help me out with the big 3 install. The CPU and PS both went in with minimal disruption - and I'm really happy with both of those upgrades. The CPS is still not working - it's broken twice and I couldn't humpty dumpty it. I've reported all of this to the forum.

My tech friend and I both have college degrees - I actually worked as a tech at research level at a university graduate school (science, oceanography) for 14 years before migrating to that manufacturing world that I referred to earlier. And the funny thing is my tech guy and I both were definitely confused by the initial CPS installation instructions (they've since been 'augmented'). Maybe it was our giving of 'slack' you mention that caused that problem. But after a few hours of the initial 'what the heck' with this installation deal, we were genuinely perplexed at the whole ordeal.

Chris has made a nice 'product', like the term or not. I've given this whole series of tech episodes a lot of slack in the 'well we'll eventually get it right department'. Review all of my on-line correspondence and it's really just reporting what I've bumped into. In one of the 2011 mid-summer archives you can find Chris saying that the CPS has been improved via the forum suggestions - akin to "let's keep this discussion in the open". I've corresponded quite a bit off-line with Chris and to be honest the only time I felt I 'lost it' (off-line) was when the painted yardstick showed up, and that was just a few days ago, with the additional realization after reviewing everything, that it's bitten me twice.

It's a $350 'product' to start. That's not inexpensive. Maybe unless you compare it to boutique-y stuff, but it is an add-on. There is no tech support # to call. There are no business hours posted. There is Chris on the other end of emails asking 'did you try this? or 'that's odd' or whatever..., and me thinking concurrently "ouch, should I try fixing this myself" or "get my tech buddy involved for x $ an hour?" I've done both. I never ever expected to take my Chroma apart so many times. It's not a game to me.

I don't expect that Chris is making any money off this, but I do suspect that this last time around I am cutting into any profit margin. And he'd like this fixed as well so that I'd be on my merry way. I'm sure Chris has lots to add from his side, but I've sent my friendly 'let's make this work' emails mixed with "I don't want to ship my Chroma damper bar", and alternatively other 'in the forum messages' because it is the literal tech support line, that actually typically garners much more timely and straight ahead responses. For me at least, because I don't know how else to connect.

Whether the tone is appropriate or not, I'm doing my best to keep it all civil, and the facts straight. Please point out the 'belligerence' other than the devil is in the how to make it all work details.

In other lifetimes, I have totally been on the receiving end of product support angst, and well, sometimes it is just not comfortable. It can actually be mind bending. painful. But usually it's according to a set of circumstances, and often valid at that. The last place I worked I was the lead sales tech guy for a 15M$ company and EVERYONE in the company could read all of my email correspondence - both ways. It was literally being in the arena every day. Did that for 3+ years...very interesting being scrutinized by - everyone. But not necessarily a bad thing because one really learns how to stand up for (and back up) what they say. And they always knew where to find me - customers and co-workers alike.

So if David or Luca (for the other two of the big3 upgrades) were on the other end of my tech woes, they'd get the same respect and feedback, regardless. I informed David we don't have local EPROM burners for his latest firmware upgrade and he was totally accommodating. I emailed Luca that his delivery seemed kind of late and there was no tracking method, and he said 'that's the Italian Poste' - and he was right - it arrived eventually. I've got a lot of respect for engineers who create things. I've got even more respect for people who want to, and can, deal with customers small and large, in order to make their products essential. How's your CPS working? ouch? huh? regards, -Brian

ps I'm done thinking about this. I'm sending my latest back to Chris and it'll get fixed and it'll be a fantastic experience.

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:27:35 +0200

Re: the big 3 upgrade - looking back?

Hi Brian,

I guess your is a public answer to Dave, not a private one sent to the list by mistake :)

I could add that the production of these "add-ons" is definitely originated by enthusiasm for this instrument, so the little margin that could be left does some covering against "hidden" costs, e.g. storing quantities against a few components purchase, shipping costs for parts etc.

I've installed three CPS kits and all of them went fine from beginning: only my own Chroma had the CPS detach from rest bar once, I simply re-pressed against and that's it. Although I was the first one to highlight this quirk on the list, and with a 10-seconds action it was fixed, I judge the CPS a very complex matter, with lots of mechanical issues to evaluate and resolve in design phase. In a word, IMHO the CPS kit is a "difficult" one: nothing not to improve, but it's a complex variable mix (I should point that the CPS is a pressure sensitive device, subject to all typical mechanic stress that could involve something that is hardly squeezed all the time, and it must remain stable, fixed to rest bar against temperature variations etc.

The glue way didn't fully convince me indeed, but I should admit that, on my experience, it does what it should. As written to Chris Borman, I'd like to see the PCB a bit longer with a hole to fix it firmly with a screw: that would feel me a bit safer. Or maybe a complete new rest bar (best coupled wood type and glue etc) with CPS already mounted on it? Eventually with adjustable hoods? :)

P.S.: about Italian Post, I definitely switched to other shipping carriers after Poste did loose a second packet to USA, this one with TWO kits, and I must publicly thank the user for his looong waiting (Italian Post cannot open incidents before two months from shipping date, plus two more months allowed for the answer, new kits preparation and new shipping...). Now I ship with Quick Pack Europe within the old continent, and EMS for other countries; this costs a bit more, but it delivers in less than a week within USA (Poste did took meanly 40 days) and is easily trackable on web.

Just my 2 cents

Jesper Ödemark [21010135] · Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:37:19 +0200

Brian McCully skrev 2011-10-16 05:07:

I just reviewed the pictures of the first separated CPS, that I'd sent to Chris (prior to the gorilla glue application) and heck, that spacer board is also painted (stained) black. Glad I took the pictures...and if I was a betting man I'd say that the culprit is absolutely the stained spacer, both times. Why is it even painted? Looks better?

As I recall it my rogue spacer is only painted along the edges. Not on the glue side... Wanted to mention this since I'm "mr glue gun" with the list now. :)

Maybe using double sided sticky tape between PCB and wood isn't a good idea, because the hammering of the keys will eventually bust a circuit trace somehow, because the tape 'gives' behind it.

I would add the fact that heat and sticky tape is a lousy combo. I still think that the awful parcel treatment of USPS in combination with heat and humidity differencies was the culprits in my case. The overseas pressure sensors travelled by air and those drops in pressure/heat/humidity can do a lot to glue in my experience.

Good luck with your pressure sensor. It's a mess when stuff don't work but a joy when they do!

chroma as part of collection, german Ebay

Jesper Ödemark [21010135] · Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:02:41 +0200

[eBay item #270831086820]

I mailed the seller for the serial. Will let you know if he responds. (And yes, a maniac price for a massive bunch of crap with a few scattered gems...)

WTB: Slider caps

Doug Terrebonne [21030114] · Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:13:04 -0700

Anyone got any extra slider caps? I've got a couple Polarii here I intend to restore and both are missing several.

Paul DeRocco [21030230] · Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:20:53 -0700

I found a source for repro caps a few months ago, at Technology Transplant (eBay seller "chipforbrains"). The Chroma Polaris caps aren't on the web site or on eBay, but he was selling them for $2.50 in onesies, $40 for a set of 20 (plus $10 registered air mail from Hong Kong). 20 is only enough for the sliders, although they do fit the levers as well. They also work on the original Chroma sliders, but not on the Chroma levers, because those shafts are thicker. They look fine, but they're not quite as snug as the originals. E-mail [email address removed] to ask about them.

slaughtered (?) Chroma on german Ebay

Jesper Ödemark [21010135] · Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:51:18 +0200

Key contacts, if someone here needs some...

[eBay item #260876083388]

Picture from the auction:

eBay260876083388

Chris Ryan [21030691] · Sat, 29 Oct 2011 20:25:50 -0700

Sold for €10.50.

Somebody got a deal...

Dave Manley [21030547] · Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:12:28 -0700

[craigslist Posting ID 2673912760]

Chroma sold for USD$1500.

Alternate Displays to use with CC+ Alphanumeric Display Capability?

David Clarke [21030085++] · Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:06:40 -0400

During past discussions of the CC+ alphanumeric display some users had expressed desires to use display modules other than the green/black Parallax 27979 currently supported.

The addition of other display types would generally mean an update to the CC+ firmware to support the different serial controllers attached to them. That being the case, it made most sense to have users agree on the alternative, so that many different display types wouldn't need to all be supported. To date, there really hasn't been a strong agreement on what (if any) additional displays should be supported.

With this in mind though, a list member had suggested an alternate approach to this this issue.

Instead of having to worry about many different serial controllers - why not try to find a common/general serial controller, and just support it - with the actual 'display' portion being left general, and being something that users could choose individually.

One such interface suggested by the user was the SparkFun serial-to-LCD controller.

The idea with this is that the CC+ would only have to support one general controller type (in addition to the Parallax one) - but user could choose whatever HD44780-compatible (20x4) LCD display they wanted.

For instance, there is a cheap red-on-black HD44780 display available here: HD44780 20x4 characters LCD module Red Character Black background [RT204-1R]

  1. Are there any users out there who'd like to use the Alphanumeric Display capability, but have been holding off because they didn't like the green Parallax display (and instead wanted to use other displays)?
  2. Are there other general 'serial to LCD' backpack controllers that people would suggest/recommend?
  3. Would people be willing to solder the controller on to the back of their LCD modules themselves - or is simply figure out how to wire up a complete display like the Parallax one more trouble than they'd otherwise like?

Best regards,

David Clarke

Luca Sasdelli [21010226] · Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:23:48 +0100

Hi Dave,

I really agree with your proposal.

Indeed I've already installed the Parallax LCD and there is no real need to change it for my own taste, but I've already read from some users waiting for a red-on-black display, to harmonize with the instrument look.

Moreover, I guess that switching from serial connection to parallel could widen user's choice across several LCD models, helping even about mechanical mounting, still a nightmare on my opinion (I've used an RS-components plastic box, housing both all MIDI ports and LCD, simply set on top of my Chroma and using the only one MIDI interface cable for everything).

James Coplin [16330036+] · Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:44:48 -0500

I don't like the Parallax display. I have no problem with soldering, housing etc. myself - I just wanted a more standard HD44780 support.

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